BALLARD, Bura (WOOD); 88; Greenfield IN; 2006-Dec-27; Bura Ballard BALLARD, Dorothy L (CROWELL); ; Indianapolis IN; 2007-Jan-3; Dorothy Ballard Ballard then partnered with long-time rival Alan Eagleson and Eagleson's client Bobby Orr to get the television rights to the series, which would be used to benefit Hockey Canada and the players' union. Please try again later. Are you sure that you want to report this flower to administrators as offensive or abusive? Are you sure that you want to delete this memorial? She was. Later that year, Ballard blocked Bassett's attempt to repurchase the Argos. Bill MacMillan Jr., who said he was estranged from his mother at the time of her death, recalled how protective his five-foot little nothing mom could be. Under coach Harry Watson, the team won the Allan Cup in 1932. In the mid-1970s the NHL, facing competition from the WHA, passed a rule that players' last names must be on the backs of their jerseys. At the same time, Ballard continued to work for Ballard Machinery, and took over the business after his father's retirement in 1935. [15] Ballard told the press that the real battle had been between Imlach and Eagleson, and Sittler just got caught in the crossfire. Echovita is an archive of public obituaries and death notices to keep you. It was the second time in three years that they had made the playoffs despite finishing with a winning percentage below .400. In 1957, Ballard moved up to the Maple Leafs as a member of a committee chaired by Stafford Smythe which oversaw hockey operations after Conn Smythe stepped down as general manager and Hap Day was pushed out of the Leafs organization. This account already exists, but the email address still needs to be confirmed. I know the family and friends were totally aghast and Oh my god, shes a gold digger but he figured out she could take his s--- and she, as time evolved, became his caregiver.. Steve Stavro, who would succeed Ballard as Leafs owner 30 years later, was co-owner of the Toronto City team. I was close with (Harold) and he figured out what she was, said Gord Stellick. [10] After the season, where the Maple Leafs were swept in the quarterfinals by the Canadiens, Ballard fired general manager Jim Gregory, replacing him with his predecessor, Punch Imlach. Police surround the vehicle, and gunfire is heard on the video. Shortly after, Ballard tried to buy the Hamilton Tiger-Cats from owner Michael DeGroote, but that offer was also rejected. When you have found an obituary of interest, you have the option of upgrading that obituary with more recent and relevant content unless the obituary is already assigned to another user. 0 cemeteries found in Toronto, Toronto Municipality, Ontario, Canada. From the Toronto Star, December 3, 1969: FUNERAL SERVICES FOR MRS. DOROTHY BALLARD Funeral services will be Friday morning at 11am at Kingsway-Lambton United Church for Mrs. Dorothy Ballard, wife of Maple Leaf Hockey Club vice president Harold Ballard. He removed the Queen's picture to make room for more seats. He was an 83 year old born in Menifee County to the union of the late Claude and Pearlie Golden White, and member of the Baptist Church. . to colleagues, clients or customers, or inquire about Your account has been locked for 30 minutes due to too many failed sign in attempts. Family and friends can send flowers and/or light a candle as a loving gesture for their loved one. Ballard remained as de facto general manager even when Imlach recovered. and spoke Slovakian as a first language. Angered that the WHA was literally in his backyard, the elder Ballard made the Toros' lease terms as onerous as possible. In the early 1970s, Ballard made an application for a second Canadian Football League team to be based in Toronto, to play at Varsity Stadium. Sunday, January 8, 2023 . Include gps location with grave photos where possible. Luckily, the singer's slightly wounded father made to his seat in time for his spotlight moment. When the Leafs traded Sittler's close friend Lanny McDonald to the moribund Colorado Rockies on December 29, 1979, a member of the Leafs anonymously told the Toronto Star that Leafs management would "do anything to get at Sittler"[12] and was bent on undermining the captain's influence on the team. Ballard sold the team to businessman David Braley on February 24, 1989. On October 16, 2016, as part of the Toronto Maple Leafs centennial celebrations, Keon was . He later reversed the names and referred to himself as Harold E. Ballard. He was 86. Please enter your email address and we will send you an email with a reset password code. After Ballard took control during the 197172 season, one of the first challenges he faced was the creation of the World Hockey Association (WHA) as a competitor to the NHL. Your Scrapbook is currently empty. A visitation will be held on Friday, August 7, from 5-7 pm, at Ballard-Sunder Funeral and Cremation, 833 S. Marschall Road, Shakopee. You may not upload any more photos to this memorial, This photo was not uploaded because this memorial already has 20 photos, This photo was not uploaded because you have already uploaded 5 photos to this memorial, This photo was not uploaded because this memorial already has 30 photos, This photo was not uploaded because you have already uploaded 15 photos to this memorial. "He fought for the underdog," Mr. McDermott says. Diamond Dreams: 20 Years of Blue Jays Baseball, Stephen Brunt, p.33, Penguin Books. Following the 1930 racing season, the Yacht Club sponsored a senior team in the Ontario Hockey Association called the Toronto National Sea Fleas. [33] The purchase was the subject of a securities commission review and a lawsuit from Ballard's son Bill, but the deal stood and Stavro and his partners in MLG Ventures became the new owner of the Leafs and Maple Leaf Gardens. Year should not be greater than current year. He said Yolanda would often show up on road trips. Harold never gave it another thought. Burial Date: March 6, 2023. He was also the owner of the Hamilton Tiger-Cats of the Canadian Football League (CFL) for 10 years from 1978 to 1988, winning a Grey Cup championship in 1986. When asked recently about the process of succession, Paul McNamara, chairman of the board of Maple Leaf Gardens, said: ''We just don't know it. Diamond Dreams: 20 Years of Blue Jays Baseball, Stephen Brunt, p.21, Penguin Books. Echovita is an archive of public obituaries and death notices to keep you informed about people who have passed away in your. October 12, 1925 - November 25, 2016 Salem, Virginia Set a Reminder for the Anniversary of Harold's Passing. Their .300 winning percentage was the second-worst in franchise history. Save to an Ancestry Tree, a virtual cemetery, your clipboard for pasting or Print. Harold Ballard. If you have questions, please contact [emailprotected]. Mr. McDermott, for one, remembers him differently. Conn Smythe later claimed that he believed he was only selling his shares to his son, but it is very unlikely that Stafford could have acquired the millions he needed to buy the Leafs on his own. Often he was the guest of Mr. Ballard at the arena's private Hot Stove Lounge, where Mr. Ballard awed all with his epic bouts of dining. There is a problem with your email/password. "There's not a remote chance I would have a career if not for Bill Ballard.". No animated GIFs, photos with additional graphics (borders, embellishments. HAROLD G BALLARD. None of the three was wearing a life jacket. [9], During the 197879 season, with the Leafs struggling to make the playoffs, Ballard fired the team's popular head coach, Roger Neilson, against the wishes of the players. Ballard was reappointed executive vice president. Ballard famously had his hand and footprints etched onto a concrete slab and placed it at centre ice of Maple Leaf Gardens, which deteriorated the quality of the Gardens ice. What if John Bassett had been able to buy Harold Ballards shares in the Maple Leafs? He could not get enough of his grandma's cooking. Through the summer of 1980, Ballard insisted that Sittler would not be back with the Leafs. This article was published more than 8 years ago. Bill was born in Saint John on July 25th, 1951, son of the late Harold and Florence (nee Keir) Ballard. Ballard used the opportunity to name himself acting general manager and hold talks with Sittler, and the two agreed that Sittler would return to the team for the 198081 season. Please contact Find a Grave at [emailprotected] if you need help resetting your password. He was convicted of fraud and sent to Millhaven Institution. This account has been disabled. In the end, they reportedly settled on somewhere between $2 million and $5 million in total, plus two seats at the Gardens. In 1934, Ballard became manager of the West Toronto Nationals OHA junior team and hired Leaf captain Hap Day as coach. Please ensure you have given Find a Grave permission to access your location in your browser settings. William Owen Sydney Ballard (November 10, 1946 - March 14, 2014) was a businessman and concert promoter. You can customize the cemeteries you volunteer for by selecting or deselecting below. "Silent runner or not, an incident in 1989 put Mr. Ballard in the public arena, where the light was not always flattering. Imlach never returned to work and his contract was allowed to expire. Edit a memorial you manage or suggest changes to the memorial manager. ''He was an original, colorful and challenging individual,'' Mr. Ziegler said yesterday. Anyone can read what you share. This is a carousel with slides. Ballard was made president and general manager. The committee came to be known as the "Silver Seven". He moved to the United States to be with his future wife in 2002. Mr. Ballard married a minister's daughter, Dorothy Higgs, who died in 1969. In 1974, when Bassett put the Toronto Argonauts up for sale, Ballard offered to buy the team for $3 million, but his offer was rejected. HAROLD BALLARD OBITUARY Harold G. Ballard, born November 20, 1932 in New Orleans and a resident of the Central Community since 1960, died Sunday July 1, 2018. You have chosen this person to be their own family member. and denied them access to the Leafs locker room. To order The Tiger-Cats made the playoffs every year under Ballard's ownership and played in four Grey Cup championship games, losing in 1980, 1984 and 1985 before finally winning the Cup in 1986. All Work and All Play: A Life in the Outrageous Sport, p. 124, John Wiley and Sons Canada Ltd., Mississauga, ON, 2005. In 1955, she met Bill MacMillan, the son of a noted magistrate. His death set off a feeding frenzy that had already been begun over the iconic properties he controlled: the Toronto Maple Leafs and the building the team played in, Maple Leaf Gardens. Previously sponsored memorials or famous memorials will not have this option. HAROLD BALLARD Years 1972-1990 Leafs record 596-736-207 Stanley Cups The skinny Sole ownership under Ballard proved disastrous both on and off the ice. Ballard died from various health complications on April 11, 1990 at the age of 86. "Any time we were in trouble, and we were in trouble far more often than I'd like to remember, Harold was there for us.". This memorial has been copied to your clipboard. However, by the time the Toros played their first game at the Gardens, Ballard had been released from prison. At no time before or after his trial did Ballard show any interest in being associated with Eagleson or in having members of the Leafs play the Soviets, and the move was widely seen to be a means to generate favourable public relations. 30. In 1991, Stavro paid off a $20 million loan that had been made to Ballard in 1980 by Molson. Two months later, he was sentenced to nine years in a federal penitentiary. He had already consolidated his position by buying out his daughter, Mary-Elizabeth, for $15.5 million. It's probably also true that few managers would have gone to the lengths that Mr. Ballard did to serve a client. [11] Gregory learned of the news when he received a call from an NHL executive offering him the directorship of the NHL Central Scouting Bureau, unbeknownst to him that Ballard had fired him.[11]. Ballard was a sports enthusiast from a young age and began running hockey teams in Toronto in the early 1930s. expressly prohibited without the prior written consent of Toronto [24] Federal Labour Minister John Munrofrom Hamiltonled an unsuccessful campaign against the deal, while Bassett, having sold the Argos to William R. Hodgson by this time, was also unable to intervene. When Hockey Night in Canadas president, Ted Hough, balked at Ballard's demands just before a broadcast, Ballard grabbed a fireman's ax and threatened to cut the TV cable unless Hough agreed to pay. The WHA had insisted on bringing in all three of its surviving Canadian teams, meaning revenue from CBC telecasts now had to be split six ways rather than three. Oops, some error occurred while uploading your photo(s). Harold Quinten Ingram, 78, of Hickory, passed away peacefully at home with his family by his side on Thursday . But Mr. Ballard became ill, called off the wedding and entered the hospital. Forward to Family & Friends; Print; Contact Support; Upgrade; Death Certificates; Share This Obituary. Neilson did return, without the paper bag. After his playing days were over, Mr. Ballard quipped, "You didn't have to think too much to be the [football] centre. The sponsor of a memorial may add an additional. Please check your email and click on the link to activate your account. The Leafs defeated the Red Wings in the final game of the season, and backed into the playoffs when the Stars lost their final game hours later. In Toronto, one of the most British of Canadian cities, with downtown streets named ''King'' and ''Queen,'' a large picture of Queen Elizabeth used to hang in Maple Leaf Gardens. Though Imlach was gone, Sittler's relationship with the Leafs worsened again in the 198182 season and he was traded that year to the Philadelphia Flyers. In 1973, the WHA moved the Ottawa Nationals to Toronto as the Toronto Toros. Other notable incidents and anecdotes during Ballard's time as majority owner of the Toronto Maple Leafs and Maple Leaf Gardens include:[1]. View Harold Edwin Ballard's obituary, contribute to their memorial, see their funeral service details, and more. Harold served two years in the. The email does not appear to be a valid email address. All Gord Stellick, the Leafs general manager in 1988-89 and Bobs brother, recalled that she just appeared at the Gardens one day (holding a cake, according to some accounts, and refusing to leave until he spoke to her). Harold Ballard. She was born June 22, 1937, in Versailles, Missouri, daughter of the late Juanita . Concert Productions International would become a hugely profitable enterprise and a game-changing innovator in full-service touring in North America. [29], Despite his reputation, Ballard was well known for his charitable activities, and even leased out MLG for many functions. The team had a poor year with Ballard coaching, but Ballard arranged a European tour for the Nationals which included competing in the 1933 Ice Hockey World Championships in Prague. Harold was born and reared in Canada. He had his own brand of patriotism. He floated the idea of bringing in the NHL's California Golden Seals into the Toronto area and much later was a failed bidder for the expansion NBA Raptors.). After Day became coach of the Leafs in 1940, he recommended Ballard to the Leaf organization to run the Toronto Marlboros, the senior and junior teams owned by the Leafs. Ballard's solution was to make the CBC pay for the upgrade. TAMPICO AREA HISTORICAL SOCIETY - MUSEUM - FAMILY HISTORY LIBRARY/RESEARCH CENTER 119 Main St., P. O. He won Stanley Cups in 1962, 1963, 1964 and 1967, all as part-owner. The Leafs, historically one of hockey's best franchises, gradually became one of its worst teams through the 1980's. It's true that few men other than Mr. Ballard could have placed a relative novice such as Mr. McDermott on a national tour with the world's premier Celtic group, the Chieftains. Three money-losing seasons later, in January 1978, DeGroote contacted Ballard and sold him the club for $1.3 million. Early in their relationship, the pair travelled to the Cayman Islands and met dignitaries including Queen Elizabeth II and former prime minister Pierre Elliott Trudeau, as well as performers such as opera star Luciano Pavarotti. As this year's Maple Leaf press guide put it, ''He continues to defy his critics and dumbfound his detractors by basically just doing whatever he pleases, regardless of what anyone else thinks. According to Globe columnist Dick Beddoes, the young Mr. Ballard played a "static but well-meaning game" as an undersized lineman. Caught between a great inheritance in the sports world and an artistic career, he chose to lay bricks and paint. Funds were also used to renovate his Midland cottage, to rent limousines for his daughter's wedding in 1967, and to buy motorcycles for his sons (passing off the expense as hockey equipment for the Marlboros), as well as placing money belonging to the corporation into a private bank account that he controlled along with Stafford Smythe. Two days later, Ballard asked Neilson to return, but with a paper bag over his head so as to conceal his identity. The singer was nearing 40 years old and working at The Toronto Sun when he embarked on a performing career. Try again later. Years later, he told friends that someone eventually stole it from him. The family requests donations to the Alzheimer Society in lieu of flowers. Create an Obituary. The Marlboros lost the game but won the series and the championship. Leave your condolences to the family on this memorial page or send flowers to show you care. Ballard also signed Brje Salming to a new contract with terms that Imlach had refused to offer. I can see a lot of lawsuits flying around here. He had claimed losses in excess of $20 million over 11 seasons with the Tiger-Cats. As a young man, he loved working with horses on his aunt and uncles farm. In September 1981, after Imlach had another heart attack during training camp, Ballard told the media that Imlach's poor health meant that "he's through as general manager". Mr. Ballard opposed hockey games against teams from the Soviet Union, calling the Russians ''parasites and barnacles who steal our money.'' On November 15, 2019, . August 17, 2016 Left to cherish her memory is her loving husband Harold of 65 years and her son Gregory (Sharon); grandchildren, Nicole (Stephen), Eric. https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/10477/harold-ballard. Star Newspapers Limited and/or its licensors. They returned to Toronto where his father, English-born Sidney Eustace Ballard, founded Ballard Machinery Supplies Co., a sewing machine manufacturer, which at one point was one of Canada's leading manufacturers of ice skates (it went out of the business in the early 1930s, when the Canadian skate market was dominated by CCM). Translation on Find a Grave is an ongoing project. Priestley, the narrator and director of "Offside: the Harold Ballard Story, wants Canadians to draw their own conclusions on the irascible sports magnate who also owned the Hamilton Tiger-Cats. Just as Ballard's trial was beginning, he told Hockey Canada that they were welcome to use any member of the Leafs on the Canadian team, could use Maple Leaf Gardens for their training camp, and could use the building for any or all of the games in the series, with the Gardens' share of the gate receipts being donated to the NHL players' pension fund. He trained at the Ontario College of Art and Design (OCAD) in fine arts. This browser does not support getting your location. William. Featured Obituary. However, Ballard did not object the following year when Hodgson sold his stake in the Argos to Carling O'Keefe notwithstanding the fact the brewer also owned a team in the WHA (the Quebec Nordiques). She was 87. Make a Memorial Donation . The Marlies won the Memorial Cup in 1955their first championship in 26 yearsand repeated the feat the following season. Showcase your loved one's life story with a featured obituary. He was born on February 28, 1945, in Astoria, Oregon. Titanic, will be the featured speaker at the 2023 CAS Spring Meeting, May 7-10, 2023 in Boston, Massachusetts.. Best known for his 1985 discovery of the Titanic, Ballard has succeeded in tracking down numerous other significant . Shortly after taking control of the Leafs, Ballard stood trial on 49 counts of fraud, theft and tax evasion involving $205,000. Angry teammates trashed their dressing room in response. Ballard was an owner of the Toronto Maple Leafs of the National Hockey League (NHL) as well as their home arena, Maple Leaf Gardens. Hough relented, and the broadcast went on as scheduled. Since it was a hot day, Mr. Ballard turned up the building's furnace, delayed both shows and ordered the concession stands to sell only large soft drinks. Growing up in Jordan, he went to St John's Catholic School for 8 years and graduated from Jordan High School in 1952. "His own boat was called Midnight Mischief, and it was aptly named," says John McDermott, the successful Scottish-Canadian tenor. Mrs. Ballard died suddenly yesterday morning in Wellesley. To do that, Ballard bought 24% of son Harold Jr.'s shares for $25 million. Facing an untenable situation, Bassett resigned as chairman and sold his shares to Ballard and Stafford Smythe in September 1971. Please include I Remember in the subject field. Subsequent league expansions and format revisions make it impossible for a team so close to the bottom of the league standings to qualify for the playoffs today. William Tyndall Sr. 1964 - 2023 William Paul Tyndall Sr., of Enid, died Monday afternoon, February 27, 2023, after an extended series of illnesses related to diabetes. At the end of the 197172 season, the Leafs only had three players signed to contracts for the next season: Rick Kehoe and veterans Jacques Plante and Bobby Baun. He also was the owner of the Hamilton Tiger Cats of the Canadian Football League (1978-89), which won the 1986 Grey Cup. When an outraged Bassett complained, Ballard demanded $3,500 for use of the lights. Beloved husband of the late Joan McKee (nee Buss). She was a canning manager and was a. However, this was largely because Ballard was unwilling to increase the payroll in order to improve the on-ice product, despite playing in the fourth-largest market. Sorry! An email has been sent to the person who requested the photo informing them that you have fulfilled their request, There is an open photo request for this memorial. Ballard was an owner of the Toronto Maple Leafs of the National Hockey League (NHL) as well as their home arena, Maple Leaf Gardens. Ballard's children - Harold Jr., William and Mary Elizabeth Flynn - and his longtime companion, Yolanda Ballard, had visited him earlier Wednesday. His acquisition of the Leafs, one of Canada's most revered properties, came shortly before Mr. Ballard served a year in jail on a fraud conviction for diverting money from the Gardens' accounts to his own. April 24, 1930 - February 27, 2023. Yolanda Ballard, the former companion of crusty Maple Leafs owner Harold Ballard who became a central figure in the circus surrounding the franchise in the 1980s and 90s, has died. Find the obituary of Rev. I thought you might like to see a memorial for Harold Ballard I found on Findagrave.com. After losing the battle to gain control of Maple Leaf Gardens, Mr. Ballard got out of the concert promotion business. ''I just booted her out,'' Ballard told Dick Beddoes, the author of the biography ''Pal Hal.'' He tried to micromanage the team, interfering with coaches and players. Mary Heuring (2/21/23) Photos larger than 8Mb will be reduced. [2] [25] After the Tiger Cats beat the Toronto Argonauts in the 1986 Eastern Final, Ballard said "You guys may still be overpaid, but after today, no one can call you losers. Mr. McDermott was a pet project of Mr. Ballard's. Along with a sister and a brother, Mr. Ballard grew up in the towering shadow of his father's loud, blustery life. cemeteries found in Toronto, Toronto Municipality, Ontario, Canada will be saved to your photo volunteer list. Learn more about merges. Which memorial do you think is a duplicate of Harold Ballard (10477)? Harold Delk Jr. (2/22/23) BERTRAND, Mo. You need a Find a Grave account to continue. New York, U.S., State Census, 1905. Review. They would not post a winning record again in Ballard's lifetime, going a franchise-record 13 consecutive seasons without a winning record. One particular weekend, he said, Michigan beat rival Michigan State and the local students were going wild, which stalled traffic. Sittler was apparently untouchable as he had a no-trade clause in his contract and, through his agent Eagleson, had insisted on $500,000 to waive it. There are no volunteers for this cemetery. As a young man-about-town in Toronto's version of the Roaring Twenties, Mr. Ballard participated in speed-skating competitions, raced motorboats and drove a Pierce-Arrow. Bassett, who had by this time become chairman of the board, received the support of the board of directors in an 87 vote to fire Smythe and Ballard. He played a key role in the Leaf dynasty of the 1960s, winning Stanley Cups in 1962, 1963, 1964 and 1967. Bill Ballard, right, with singer Tom Cochrane and music publicist James Monaco at the opening of the musical Tommy in Toronto in 1995. Ballard. We will review the memorials and decide if they should be merged. She thought it was horrible, the way she was treated by certain members of the family, and she found it unfortunate they wouldnt recognize the status she had, Levitt said. Use Next and Previous buttons to navigate, or jump to a slide with the slide dots. Try again later. Yolanda was obviously a die-hard Toronto Maple Leaf fan to her death, and never missed the home opener., Anyone can read Conversations, but to contribute, you should be a registered Torstar account holder. Cool as a cucumber she says, Youre going to get you blankety blank a-- out of this car or youre going to have a hole that I can put a football through from here to East Lansing., She just knew what to do at the right time.. The following season, Day and Ballard worked together to run a senior team sponsored by E. P. Taylor's Dominion Brewery. Loving father of Alan McKee (Beverly) of Calgary, Nancy Buckham (David) of Burlington, Karen Charlebois (Del) of Newcastle and Brian McKee of St. Catharines. He was "Billy" to his friends, and he had many of those. (His father had made the team's skates.) Canadian businessman and sportsman (19031990). All photos appear on this tab and here you can update the sort order of photos on memorials you manage. Box 154, Tampico, IL 61283 www.tampicohistoricalsociety.com tampicohistoricalsociety@gmail.com President Joan Johnson, 815-438-7581 or garyjoan@thewisp.net Family History Coordinator, Denise McLoughlin 815-718-3617. Davidson had served in the Leafs organization for almost 40 years in various capacities. Mr. Ballard invested in Maple Leaf Gardens when it was built in 1931 and worked there as he worked his way through the organization in various positions. Yolanda was born Jan. 3, 1933 in Fort William, Ont. There was a problem getting your location. ABBOTT, Harold M; 85; Indianapolis IN; 2007-May-6; Harold Abbott . After being fined, he backed down and put the names in the opposite colours. In his will, Ballard had left Yolanda $50,000 a year for the rest of her life, but she considered this inadequate and sued for $192,600 and later $381,000 a year. Thanks for your help! Ballard wasn't initially named to the committee when it was unveiled in March 1957, but took the place of Ian Johnston nine months later. Canada, Newspapers.com Obituary Index, 1800s-current. In August, just weeks before the series began, Ballard was convicted on 47 of the charges. With Ballard's support, Imlach moved to dismantle the roster and undermine Sittler's influence, despite many analysts viewing the team as having a promising future. Weve both been to jail.. Soon, they were a couple. Are you adding a grave photo that will fulfill this request? He participated in the 133-mile Albany, New York-New York City marathon in April 1930, finishing second in his class. Family and friends must say goodbye to their beloved Harold Ballard Sheriff (Elberton, Georgia), born in Seneca, South Carolina, who passed away at the age of 78, on April 1, 2019. 00:02:34 Harold Ballard is very self-deprecating, but that doesn't mean he isn't astute or insightful.
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